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	<title>Comments on: Tom Thivener on bike boulevards</title>
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	<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/</link>
	<description>Because Every Bicyclist Needs a Good Lawyer.</description>
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		<title>By: Coghauler</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18494</link>
		<dc:creator>Coghauler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 00:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18494</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s exactly what I have thought, Martha.
The current group is interested in improving
the situation for riders as they know them.
Riding clubs and the BAC are basically
made up of that group. If you want to steer
that focus another way, then you should get
involved and represent what you think is 
needed to bring more riders onto the streets.
It is difficult for riders to foresee and speak
for those who don&#039;t ride yet or want to use
their bikes differently. The BAC is very
shorthanded as far as diversity of input
is concerned and welcomes all to get involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s exactly what I have thought, Martha.<br />
The current group is interested in improving<br />
the situation for riders as they know them.<br />
Riding clubs and the BAC are basically<br />
made up of that group. If you want to steer<br />
that focus another way, then you should get<br />
involved and represent what you think is<br />
needed to bring more riders onto the streets.<br />
It is difficult for riders to foresee and speak<br />
for those who don&#8217;t ride yet or want to use<br />
their bikes differently. The BAC is very<br />
shorthanded as far as diversity of input<br />
is concerned and welcomes all to get involved.</p>
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		<title>By: Colby</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18486</link>
		<dc:creator>Colby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 20:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18486</guid>
		<description>Anyone know if there are private grant funds available to get an advocacy group off the ground? BikesBelong, Trek, etc?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone know if there are private grant funds available to get an advocacy group off the ground? BikesBelong, Trek, etc?</p>
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		<title>By: Martha Retallick</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18477</link>
		<dc:creator>Martha Retallick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18477</guid>
		<description>I agree with Tom on the notion of the missing bike advocacy organization. ISTM that our current crop of local groups are more interested in organizing rides and races (and rides that masquerade as races) than they are in growing the pool of riders. 

An advocacy organization, especially one that doesn&#039;t cater to the spandex-wearing, fast-riding crowd, could work wonders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Tom on the notion of the missing bike advocacy organization. ISTM that our current crop of local groups are more interested in organizing rides and races (and rides that masquerade as races) than they are in growing the pool of riders. </p>
<p>An advocacy organization, especially one that doesn&#8217;t cater to the spandex-wearing, fast-riding crowd, could work wonders.</p>
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		<title>By: Tucson Velo</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18445</link>
		<dc:creator>Tucson Velo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 04:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18445</guid>
		<description>Cog, I think the underpass idea is AWESOME! 

As far as the &quot;feels safer&quot; argument, the perception of safety is often more important that the actual safety. 

Take SUVs for example, many people buy them because they are big and surrounded my metal, so they must be safer. In reality, passenger cars are much safer when you are in an accident. 

That being said about perception versus reality, &lt;a href=&quot;http://awurl.com/nJgboqdxc&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I&#039;ve quoted a study Tom did about crashes on 3rd Street versus Broadway&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cog, I think the underpass idea is AWESOME! </p>
<p>As far as the &#8220;feels safer&#8221; argument, the perception of safety is often more important that the actual safety. </p>
<p>Take SUVs for example, many people buy them because they are big and surrounded my metal, so they must be safer. In reality, passenger cars are much safer when you are in an accident. </p>
<p>That being said about perception versus reality, <a href="http://awurl.com/nJgboqdxc" rel="nofollow">I&#8217;ve quoted a study Tom did about crashes on 3rd Street versus Broadway</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Coghauler</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18430</link>
		<dc:creator>Coghauler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 21:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18430</guid>
		<description>Coghauler is not anti-Bike Boulevard.
He&#039;s just seeking a definitive positive
for them and thinks &#039;feels safer&#039; 
is somewhat nebulous and subjective.
But, maybe it doesn&#039;t work that way.
I was drawn to Tom T.&#039;s comments on
support systems that help bike boule-
vards work...the bridges.
I have put forth as part of the Grant
Road project, underpasses like the ones
on Speedway at U.of A. at at least one
location serving bike and pedestrian
traffic. Crossroads seems a ripe location,
too. The idea was met with barely a ho-hum.
But, I don&#039;t think they&#039;re making Grant Rd.
narrower and easier to cross. There again,
the visual perception of safety.
I think Tucson&#039;s connector streets are 
ideal and need not be intimidating.
Glenn serves as a backdoor to Crossroads
for people to the North. 
Does the city fear empowering such 
an advocacy group with enough influence 
to be effective?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coghauler is not anti-Bike Boulevard.<br />
He&#8217;s just seeking a definitive positive<br />
for them and thinks &#8216;feels safer&#8217;<br />
is somewhat nebulous and subjective.<br />
But, maybe it doesn&#8217;t work that way.<br />
I was drawn to Tom T.&#8217;s comments on<br />
support systems that help bike boule-<br />
vards work&#8230;the bridges.<br />
I have put forth as part of the Grant<br />
Road project, underpasses like the ones<br />
on Speedway at U.of A. at at least one<br />
location serving bike and pedestrian<br />
traffic. Crossroads seems a ripe location,<br />
too. The idea was met with barely a ho-hum.<br />
But, I don&#8217;t think they&#8217;re making Grant Rd.<br />
narrower and easier to cross. There again,<br />
the visual perception of safety.<br />
I think Tucson&#8217;s connector streets are<br />
ideal and need not be intimidating.<br />
Glenn serves as a backdoor to Crossroads<br />
for people to the North.<br />
Does the city fear empowering such<br />
an advocacy group with enough influence<br />
to be effective?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Thivener</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18405</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Thivener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18405</guid>
		<description>Okay so I guess there is a time limit to this as it posted early. To continue...

If you take yourself outside the university area in Tucson, you&#039;ll find that options are limited to the main roads.  Imagine you live on the east side near 5th Street and Craycroft.  If you wanted to ride Crossroads Festival at Grant/Swan to catch a movie, get grocercies, have coffee, you could drive or you could ride there.  If you wanted to ride you could take the main roads, riding up Craycroft or Rosemont and Grant to get there.  You could also take the residential routes like Sahuara, Seneca or Arcadia but since these bike routes don&#039;t have signals to help you cross the road it can  be quite difficult to do so.  Put these diffulties together and not very many people bike to Crossroads Festival or very much at all on that part of town.  Folks need options over there and bike boulevards are part of the solution to auto-dependency for some trips.  So are the urban greenways that Parks and Rec is planning along the secondary wash system.  
Perhaps the leadership of Tucson is distracted by other issues.  Part of the problem lies in how Tucsonans advocate or don&#039;t advocate for change.   Tucson is probably the only community rated Silver or higher by the League of American Bicyclists that does not have an active bike advocacy organization.  How can Tucson become a more livable community where the bike is seen as a valid mobility tool instead of just as a recreational tool, if no one is working on building consensus on what that vision is?  We have some super active indivuals in this community who serve on numerous boards and committees, and who volunteer their time encouraging folks to ride, or teach folks how to be more confident riders.  But we don&#039;t have a group who has the time to work the many hours needed to  define or implement such a vision for better bicycling in Tucson.  This is a real weak spot that the League of American Bicyclists have pointed out.  Until a group mobilizes and defines their vision, the leadership of this community will continue to focus on other issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay so I guess there is a time limit to this as it posted early. To continue&#8230;</p>
<p>If you take yourself outside the university area in Tucson, you&#8217;ll find that options are limited to the main roads.  Imagine you live on the east side near 5th Street and Craycroft.  If you wanted to ride Crossroads Festival at Grant/Swan to catch a movie, get grocercies, have coffee, you could drive or you could ride there.  If you wanted to ride you could take the main roads, riding up Craycroft or Rosemont and Grant to get there.  You could also take the residential routes like Sahuara, Seneca or Arcadia but since these bike routes don&#8217;t have signals to help you cross the road it can  be quite difficult to do so.  Put these diffulties together and not very many people bike to Crossroads Festival or very much at all on that part of town.  Folks need options over there and bike boulevards are part of the solution to auto-dependency for some trips.  So are the urban greenways that Parks and Rec is planning along the secondary wash system.<br />
Perhaps the leadership of Tucson is distracted by other issues.  Part of the problem lies in how Tucsonans advocate or don&#8217;t advocate for change.   Tucson is probably the only community rated Silver or higher by the League of American Bicyclists that does not have an active bike advocacy organization.  How can Tucson become a more livable community where the bike is seen as a valid mobility tool instead of just as a recreational tool, if no one is working on building consensus on what that vision is?  We have some super active indivuals in this community who serve on numerous boards and committees, and who volunteer their time encouraging folks to ride, or teach folks how to be more confident riders.  But we don&#8217;t have a group who has the time to work the many hours needed to  define or implement such a vision for better bicycling in Tucson.  This is a real weak spot that the League of American Bicyclists have pointed out.  Until a group mobilizes and defines their vision, the leadership of this community will continue to focus on other issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Thivener</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18402</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Thivener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18402</guid>
		<description>Good discussion.  I have learned a lot from my vacation time in Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, BC this month.  Portland has some great facilities in bike boulevards, the greenways along the river that runs through downtown, and the fabulous bridges that connect the downtown to the neighborhoods.  Portland has few bike lanes compared to Tucson.  They are mostly on streets where no low traffic option was available.  More recently they&#039;ve been doing a lot of road diets to get bike lanes or buffered bike lanes on major roads to slow down vehicle speeds and improve the overall bike network.  Downtown lacks many bike facilities, but speeds are slow and the lights are timed so that if you are going 10 to 13 mph you can make every light, so car speeds are kept in check that way too.  

Portland&#039;s bike boulevards are well used and offer a low-stress way to bike from virtually any neighborhood to schools, businesses, transit centers, the downtown, etc.  They seem to be a core facility in getting Portland&#039;s bike use up to 6% but all the other pieces are equally as important.  I can&#039;t imagine the bike boulevards working as well if their bridges linking the downtown didn&#039;t have bike paths on them and vice versa.  

Portland&#039;s recipe for bike boulevards seems pretty simple.  Take the most direct residential street (about every 1/4 mile to half mile apart), add wayfinding signs to tell you when to turn, add shared-lane pavement markings, add traffic calming if speeds are higher than 25mph, turn stop signs to the side streets and provide help at key crossings.  Portland has a couple bike signals but for the most part bikes either take advantage of the pedestrian signal at what are called &#039;half-signals&#039; or there is some sort of median device to calm traffic/give bikes a refuge to wait in.  I can see why they haven&#039;t invested in many bike signals so far.  The main roads that the bike boulevards have to cross are much smaller than Tucson&#039;s.  Portland&#039;s main roads are typically 2 or 3 lanes to cross, while Tucson typically has 5 or 6 lanes, or more in some circumstances. An engineer I met here called Tucson the home of the mega-arterial roads.  

More impressive than any facility in Portland is their encouragement programs.  From the City&#039;s Smart Trips program to the 5 Ciclovia&#039;s this summer held in different neighborhoods, to Pedalpoloza in June to all the random bike stuff that the community is doing.  All these programs, events, fun bike things seem to have created a super bike awareness here even among the folks who never get out onto bikes.  

I think the debate over bike boulevards is largely over. The BAC, numerous neighborhoods, private citizens, health/wellness groups, etc are in support of this sort of infrasture.   If you take yourself outside of the immediate vicinity of the university you will your options for riding a bike to be severly limited to basically riding on major roads.  find our residential bikeway network to be severly lacking 



From talking to The thinI have about 500 photos of bike facilities in Vancouver BC and Portland OR to sort through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good discussion.  I have learned a lot from my vacation time in Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, BC this month.  Portland has some great facilities in bike boulevards, the greenways along the river that runs through downtown, and the fabulous bridges that connect the downtown to the neighborhoods.  Portland has few bike lanes compared to Tucson.  They are mostly on streets where no low traffic option was available.  More recently they&#8217;ve been doing a lot of road diets to get bike lanes or buffered bike lanes on major roads to slow down vehicle speeds and improve the overall bike network.  Downtown lacks many bike facilities, but speeds are slow and the lights are timed so that if you are going 10 to 13 mph you can make every light, so car speeds are kept in check that way too.  </p>
<p>Portland&#8217;s bike boulevards are well used and offer a low-stress way to bike from virtually any neighborhood to schools, businesses, transit centers, the downtown, etc.  They seem to be a core facility in getting Portland&#8217;s bike use up to 6% but all the other pieces are equally as important.  I can&#8217;t imagine the bike boulevards working as well if their bridges linking the downtown didn&#8217;t have bike paths on them and vice versa.  </p>
<p>Portland&#8217;s recipe for bike boulevards seems pretty simple.  Take the most direct residential street (about every 1/4 mile to half mile apart), add wayfinding signs to tell you when to turn, add shared-lane pavement markings, add traffic calming if speeds are higher than 25mph, turn stop signs to the side streets and provide help at key crossings.  Portland has a couple bike signals but for the most part bikes either take advantage of the pedestrian signal at what are called &#8216;half-signals&#8217; or there is some sort of median device to calm traffic/give bikes a refuge to wait in.  I can see why they haven&#8217;t invested in many bike signals so far.  The main roads that the bike boulevards have to cross are much smaller than Tucson&#8217;s.  Portland&#8217;s main roads are typically 2 or 3 lanes to cross, while Tucson typically has 5 or 6 lanes, or more in some circumstances. An engineer I met here called Tucson the home of the mega-arterial roads.  </p>
<p>More impressive than any facility in Portland is their encouragement programs.  From the City&#8217;s Smart Trips program to the 5 Ciclovia&#8217;s this summer held in different neighborhoods, to Pedalpoloza in June to all the random bike stuff that the community is doing.  All these programs, events, fun bike things seem to have created a super bike awareness here even among the folks who never get out onto bikes.  </p>
<p>I think the debate over bike boulevards is largely over. The BAC, numerous neighborhoods, private citizens, health/wellness groups, etc are in support of this sort of infrasture.   If you take yourself outside of the immediate vicinity of the university you will your options for riding a bike to be severly limited to basically riding on major roads.  find our residential bikeway network to be severly lacking </p>
<p>From talking to The thinI have about 500 photos of bike facilities in Vancouver BC and Portland OR to sort through.</p>
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		<title>By: Tucson Velo</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18273</link>
		<dc:creator>Tucson Velo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18273</guid>
		<description>They feel much safer because the speeds on the bike boulevards are much slower and there are a lot less traffic on them. 

because there is less traffic on them, it is much easier for a car to go around you (at the slower speed) and give you a wide berth because they don&#039;t also have to contend with oncoming traffic. 

The drivers are much better trained too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They feel much safer because the speeds on the bike boulevards are much slower and there are a lot less traffic on them. </p>
<p>because there is less traffic on them, it is much easier for a car to go around you (at the slower speed) and give you a wide berth because they don&#8217;t also have to contend with oncoming traffic. </p>
<p>The drivers are much better trained too.</p>
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		<title>By: Coghauler</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18270</link>
		<dc:creator>Coghauler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18270</guid>
		<description>So it would seem that the sense of
safety stems from the behavior of
car drivers.
I&#039;m really puzzled by the &quot;feel
much safer&quot; statement. What is it
about how the boulevard looks that
gives that sense? Because if there
aren&#039;t many signalized crossings, then
the boulevards lack actual design
safety. Signalized crossings are a 
safer design than unsignalized crossings.
I think of a definition of safe (safety,
safer) as being the removal of a hazard.
Then I get my feeling from that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So it would seem that the sense of<br />
safety stems from the behavior of<br />
car drivers.<br />
I&#8217;m really puzzled by the &#8220;feel<br />
much safer&#8221; statement. What is it<br />
about how the boulevard looks that<br />
gives that sense? Because if there<br />
aren&#8217;t many signalized crossings, then<br />
the boulevards lack actual design<br />
safety. Signalized crossings are a<br />
safer design than unsignalized crossings.<br />
I think of a definition of safe (safety,<br />
safer) as being the removal of a hazard.<br />
Then I get my feeling from that.</p>
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		<title>By: Tucson Velo</title>
		<link>http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/tom-thivener-on-bike-boulevards/comment-page-1/#comment-18259</link>
		<dc:creator>Tucson Velo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tucsonbikelawyer.com/?p=1592#comment-18259</guid>
		<description>I just got back from PDX and rode on the bike boulevards and on street bike lanes. 

I&#039;ll post my observations, photos and video on Monday, but their bike boulevards worked really well. They get you places easily and they feel much safer. Many of the crossings at major intersections did not have signals, though.

The thing is, the drivers were pretty amazing. They were trained to look for bikes and would stop to let you cross the intersection. Even a bus driver stopped to let us pass. 

I doubt that would happen here in Tucson.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just got back from PDX and rode on the bike boulevards and on street bike lanes. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll post my observations, photos and video on Monday, but their bike boulevards worked really well. They get you places easily and they feel much safer. Many of the crossings at major intersections did not have signals, though.</p>
<p>The thing is, the drivers were pretty amazing. They were trained to look for bikes and would stop to let you cross the intersection. Even a bus driver stopped to let us pass. </p>
<p>I doubt that would happen here in Tucson.</p>
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